Senior Seminar. In Utopia, setting the stage for a contrast with the good government and wise laws of Utopia, Book I gives examples of poorly organized governments and bad laws. Prominent among them is the law specifying the death penalty for thieves. Raphael Hythloday argues against this law, and underlying his argument is the assumption that crime is at least partly a matter of social organization rather than personal morality. As he puts it, instead of attempting to prevent theft by means of harsh punishments, “much rather provision should have been made, that there were some means whereby [destitute people] might get their living, so that no man should be driven to this extreme necessity, first to steal and then to die.” His thinking here seems to be what today we would call sociological. Is the same true of Hythloday’s other arguments and observations in Book I?
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Eng 394 — Links
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Eng 358 — Links
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With Brooks Haynie, 1967-2006
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9 comments:
Uh, Yeah. It's true. This is a yes/no question, right? So, uh, does this count as one of my required posts? I mean, um, I hate to be rude, but I didn't realize this course would take so much time to prepare for...uh, I'm really busy with a part time job in the student center and I write for the SOCO, so I'm sorry, man. I am really beat right now. So, yes, it's true.
Anyway, I find the book rather inaccessible and so I am locating the Sparkless Notes on it or Cliffhanger Notes or whatever. I'll get back you.
-Bunsen (check me out, man. I've got my own blog, too. You might recognize some of the people I hang with...)
Although, I am not a sociologist I would say the same holds true for Hythloday's other arguments throughout Book I. He seems to argue that different aspects of society contribute to crime, and that through regulation, we can correct them, or lessen their impact.
One argument that struck out to me is that of the thief as well. However, I liked how he said, if death was the penalty for theft, then it would put this on the same plane as murder; Therefore, nothing would stop someone from murdering their worst enemy, if they were inclined to commit a crime. If you're going to commit a crime, and get put to death, you might as well go for the Stanley Cup!!
But is crime sociological? I understand Hythloday's arguments, but I don't see how it would really be of any use. Can his argument be said of today's culture/society? I mean, we don't have a lot of sheep problems in our society.
However, we definitely see a push from urban to suburban, and now suburban back into urban (a sort of neo-urban). And this shift in living situations certainly causes strife among the people living in these areas. The ones being pushed out of their homes are unfortunately becoming angrier and angrier at the fact that they are losing their homes because richer, whiter, more politically connected people are moving in.
Yes, Hythloday's other arguments are sociological. It is apparent he has studied many different societies and he knows what he is talking about. When Hythloday talks about Kings being advised by philosophers, he says "they would never abide by the counsels of philosophers, imbued as they are and infected with false values from boyhood up". Society presses on children materialistic desires that everyone seeks. The kids grow up wanting to get all their desires. Society teaches a individualistic ideology, it is all about the individuals, not so much the society. Kings would want to better their positon, their wealth, and then think about the society they rule over.
Snoopy
Hythloday’s other arguments in Book I are basically sociological in their approach, which is logical, considering he is exploring the ideal society. He defines a ruler not by how effectively they can control and manipulate the masses through deceit and oppression, but by how well they are able to care, provide, and ensure the emotional and physical safety of their people. The motives and actions of the leader are obviously pertinent to the construction of society, and he logically assumes that if a leader constantly chokes his people with a tyrannical grip, they will eventually grow so desperate for breath that they will rebel. Rather, Hythloday instructs kings to avoid vice by “liv[ing] upon what belongs to him, without wronging others, and accommodate his expense to his revenue. Let him punish crimes, and by his wise conduct let him endeavor to prevent them, rather than be severe when he has suffered them to be too common…Such a king as this will be the terror of ill men, and will be beloved by all the good” (21). If a King is good, it is assumed that the people will be as well. Whether or not this assumption actually holds truth in sociological study, he still uses a sociological thought process to reach his conclusion.
wether or not hithloday is making a socialogical arugment is beggin the question. in our time frame we find his raitonal argument of the death penalty amenable. however are we truly in a frame to pass judgment. true some people are moral and just. and no one should have to steal or borrow to live however how else should you punish thieves? imprisonment acts as a determine to the state to convict. we should you incarcerate an individual in order to punish them. let the punishment be so heinous as to act as its own deterrent.
Well yes, i would say so, that he seems to lean rather heavily on society to solve the crime problem by removing incentive to steal. His general thinking would seem to be that no matter the disposition of individual citizens, they will break the laws if driven to by hunger or want.
The narrator, however, seems to disagree with Hythloday (as do I to a certain extent). He rebukes Raphael, noting "it seems to me that men cannot live conveniently, where all things are common"(25) because it is only need or want that drives men to work hard and achieve those things. If there is nothing to strive for, and nobody can have their own possessions (and thus can't even sell or trade them to get things) then people will do the bare minimum, relying instead on the labor of their neighbors.
Of course we saw this to be true in the failed models of communism in Russia, and I think to a great extent the US welfare system. Everyone needs help from time to time, but if you give too much, people become complacent, then bored, and then go looking for trouble, basically.
I would have to agree with Say! You gave a good example of how in our own society how this type of issue occurs. Welfare being a really good example, seeing a lot people in they system they feel because they receive assistance from the government they don't need to work. So therefore they're dead time eventually gets boring and soon find trouble. They end up in jail, a lot of time not ending the cycle.
Adding to that... the common man doesn't just settle on what they need but more of what they want. Society has embedded in us that materialistic object do matter, even if we try not to let them, in some way they do!!!
Hopefully I touched on the question asked?
The idea of creating the perfect circumstance where there would be no need for crime is what the ideal society (or utopia) is all about. Hythloday's arguments I think are sociological, but the counter argument is sociological as well, right? Specific punishments for specific crimes (such as death for stealing) creates certain ideologies toward those crimes by society that are knowingly or unknowingly followed. If there was a punishment for stealing that was death in our society, obviously that would change the circumstances under which people decided to commit that crime. Is that not sociological?
Raphael I say is sociological, based on the idea that a perfect society doesn't need to punish because there is no need for crime. For when he is said to be a possible counsellor of princes based on his knowledge (although it is known that public affairs make him uneasy) as he even states that "For most princes apply themselves more to affairs of war than to the useful arts of peace; and in these I neither have any knowledge, nor do I much desire it: they are generally more set on acquiring new kingdoms, right or wrong, than on governing well those they possess."
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